145: The Problem With Sensitive Skincare Products No One Talks About w/ Rachael Pontillo

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There are countless sensitive skincare products available today. For people with skin rashes and dry skin, these products seem like the right fit, because “dry” and “rashes” often go hand in hand with “sensitive”. My guest today will debunk this common misconception.

 

Or, listen on your favorite app: iTunes (Apple Podcasts) | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn | Subscribe on Android

My guest today is Rachael Pontillo, a holistic skincare innovator, author, and educator. Rachael is the bestselling author of the book Love Your Skin, Love Yourself, and co-author of The Sauce Code. She’s a functional nutrition practitioner, AADP and IAHC Board Certified International Health Coach, licensed aesthetician, and natural skincare formulator and educator.

She’s the president and co-founder of the Nutritional Aesthetics™ Alliance, the creator of the popular skincare and healthy lifestyle blog, Holistically Haute™, as well as the much-loved online course, Create Your Skincare. She’s an avid herbalist, skincare ingredient aficionado, and lifelong learner.

Rachael is also my good friend.

Join us as we talk about the problem with the term “sensitive skin”, and how to better recognize and care for your skin type.

Has learning your skin type improved your skin health? Let me know in the comments!

In this episode:

• Rachael's take on skincare products for sensitive skin
• How can you identify your skin type?
• How Rachael helped Jen with her sebaceous gland hyperplasia
• How to maintain acid mantle of the skin

Quotes

“Most people are not born with sensitive skin. Most people develop sensitive skin over time from overexposure to things in the environment.” [4:54]

“We don't have a skin type. We all have combination skin. We just have to figure out what that combination is.” [18:28]

Links

Find Rachael online

Create Your Skincare

Nutritional Aesthetics

Interested in trying Rachael's online classes to create your own skincare? Click HERE!

Healthy Skin Show episode 024: Most Harmful Ingredients Hiding In Skin Care w/ Rachael Pontillo

Healthy Skin Show episode 114: Why Preservatives In Skincare Can Be A Good Thing w/ Rachael Pontillo

Follow Rachael on Facebook | Twitter | YouTube | Instagram

145: The Problem With Sensitive Skincare Products No One Talks About w/ Rachael Pontillo FULL TRANSCRIPT

Jennifer: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Healthy Skin Show. I've got a longtime friend and one of my favorite guests to interview today and we're going to be talking about something that hit very close to home for me as far as my skin ending up pretty wrecked and I turned to Rachael, you guys know Rachael Pontillo, she's been on the show and on the eczema psoriasis awareness weeks, for help. I mean I didn't know what to do with my skin and I'll share with you guys what happened in a moment if you're not aware.

Jennifer: If you don't remember Rachael, let me reintroduce her to you. She is a holistic skincare innovator, author and educator as well as the bestselling author of the book, Love Your Skin, Love Yourself and coauthor of The Sauce Code. She's a functional nutrition practitioner, AADP and IAHC board certified international health coach. She's also a licensed aesthetician and natural skincare formulator and educator. She is the president and co-founder of the Nutritional Aesthetics Alliance, the creator of the popular skin care and healthy lifestyle blog, Holistically Haute and she has a really fantastic online course called Create Your Skincare. She knows a ton about herbs, skincare ingredients. She loves to learn. She is my go to resource for all things ingredients and skincare. Rachael, thank you for coming back.

Rachael: Well I'm excited to be back.

Jennifer: Yeah. And so I guess I should share the story because people need to know.

Rachael: Yeah, I think that's a good starting point.

Jennifer: Okay. So here's the thing. I assumed because I've had eczema in the past that I have sensitive skin. So I went to the grocery store, like Whole Foods or something, and I bought… I look at the sensitive skin care lines that were there and I bought a whole line of sensitive skincare products for my face.

Jennifer: And what I actually noticed was that my skin on my face became increasingly greasy. To the point where even a couple hours after washing my face in the morning, I could rub my fingers across my forehead and they were complete… It was like an oil slick. And I thought that was good. I was like, “Oh, it's good. My skin has a lot of moisture to it.” I don't know. Well, that kind of backfired and I started to develop these weird almost like eruptions. It looks like a black head but it's not. And it's really raised where the pores have become almost enlarged. It looks like almost a little volcano on your face. And I didn't know what it was. I developed them all across my forehead, on my cheeks and I went to the dermatologist and turns out it is sebaceous gland hyperplasia.

Jennifer: And so I went to Rachael because the products that I got at the dermatologist were so harsh on my skin, I could not use them. And Rachael literally saved my skin. So Rachael, I think the point here is, number one, why… We got to talk about sensitive skin and what that kind of, I don't know, that category of skincare, even means… Does it mean anything? Because I think everybody thinks if they have skin problems, they just have sensitive skin, but I think I clearly made a wrong choice even though I thought I was making a right choice. So what's your take on sensitive skin care products?

Rachael: I'm so glad that we're talking about this because it's something that I've really noticed a lot in my practice with my private clients and it's even something that I experienced a bit personally because sensitive skin, what I found out just from working with people and then when I started learning more about formulation and ingredients and how they work on different people, is that sensitive skin is not a skin type. It's a condition that has different root causes just like any other skin condition would. Like acne has different causes. Melasma or other types of hyperpigmentation have different causes. Even early signs of aging like fine lines and wrinkles could have many different causes. Eczema, as you know, and psoriasis, many different causes.

Rachael: So if we're just looking at sensitive skin as a skin type, which in formulations on the market it's usually lumped in with dry sensitive, right? That's typically what you see. But most people are not born with sensitive skin. Most people develop sensitive skin over time from overexposure to things in the environment like pollution in our water, the overly high pH of water. As I think you and I have talked about in the past, using the wrong ingredients for your skin, like coconut oil, which I know we've talked about in the past.

Rachael: Things like over cleansing, things like overexposure to the sun, synthetic fragrances in household cleaning products and air fresheners that we are just constantly in contact with. Even if we don't notice it, even if we can make changes in our households, if we have a workplace that uses these products on surfaces and in the air, it's our skin, our face, our hands that are coming into contact with these on a regular basis. And that's just from the outside in, nevermind what can happen from the inside out where if we're eating the wrong types of foods for our body which are causing problems like dysbiosis and toxic buildup. Gluten, dairy, sugar, those are my three. That's my skin trigger trifecta that I mentioned in the book, Love Your Skin, Love Yourself.

Rachael: But also just any type of food sensitivity, any type of inflammation that of course also can have multiple sources, could be interfering with your skin's ability to heal itself when there is a problem. But also the skin cells that you see on the surface, they are formed below the surface. The epidermis itself, that's the outermost layers of the skin which cosmetics work on, they actually don't have their own blood supply, which is where those cells would get nutrients. Those cells form at that very bottom layer and they take nutrients from the dermis, which is the lower layer of the skin that is where the collagen and the elastin form and all of these things. That is actually not something that topical products can directly affect.

Jennifer: Interesting.

Rachael: Which is a little fun fact for you. So while we can do what we can to nourish the cells that do form in the deepest layer of the epidermis, that's where your pigment cells form, that's where some of our immune cells form like the Langerhans cells and some of these other cells that kind of rise up in the epidermis to help us fight off invaders. We can protect those. But most of the products on the market, especially exfoliants, harsh exfoliants, they don't protect them, they actually strip them away and cause irritation.

Rachael: So when we have constant irritation from putting the wrong things into our body, plus the wrong things coming into contact with our skin on the outside. And let's even look at the bigger picture, mindset, stress. We know that stress directly interrupts the skins acid mantle. It interferes with mineral production or mineral content in the acid mantle, which is necessary for proper nutrient absorption. So these are things that all can cause us to become sensitized even though we might not actually have sensitive skin.

Rachael: So what is really important though from a product standpoint is that when you see something that says it's specially formulated for sensitive skin, dermatologist approved, blah, blah, blah, dermatologist approved, first of all means nothing. You could have a group of 10 dermatologists, nine of them think it's a crap product and the 10th one says, “Oh, I like it” and it's dermatologist approved.

Jennifer: Really?

Rachael: Oh yeah. It's not a regulated term.

Jennifer: Wow.

Rachael: Same thing can be said about things like hypoallergenic. There's actually no such thing as a hypoallergenic product because literally anybody can be allergic to anything at any time.

Jennifer: Wow.

Rachael: Allergies pop up for people all the time. So if you do have really sensitive skin, I like to call it reactive skin or sensitized skin, it's usually because you're reacting to something from the environment or from inside.

Jennifer: Let me get this straight. Sensitive skin… Okay, so we're saying this is not a skin type, but yet we go to the store and we're conditioned to buy products based off of a skin type.

Rachael: Right.

Jennifer: Right? Oily, dry-

Rachael: Right.

Jennifer: Anti-aging…

Rachael: Mature.

Jennifer: Mature.

Rachael: Regular. Normal slash regular. Like what does that even mean?

Jennifer: I don't even know at this point.

Rachael: Right? Who makes those decisions?

Jennifer: And what was horrifying to me was that… And so for everyone listening you should realize like those little, we'll just call them little volcanoes on my face, the only way to get rid of them, the only way, was to have them burned off, which is painful and it was like $100 copay every single time I went. I think I've gone twice and I probably at some point will have to go a third time. And so I was using products that were… I don't know, I think one of your comments, Rachael was like they were had a ton of ingredients and using certain ingredients that was causing my skin to actually produce excessive oil.

Rachael: Yeah. So what we found with the products that you were using, and for those of you who are listening, Jen sent me the ingredient lists and the links to all the products she was using. She's like, “Why are these not working? Why is my skin doing this? These are supposed to be for sensitive skin.” Well Jen has naturally oily skin. She doesn't have dry skin. She's had issues with dryness like eczema in the past, but that's not inherently dry skin. That's not her skin type. I actually refer to it as a skin combination. She is naturally on the oilier side as many of us Italian women are. Which as we age it's a blessing because oilier skin does tend to age slower, but most of the sensitive skin products on the market are also formulated for kind of dry skin.

Rachael: So the oils that are in those products are more saturated. They stay on the skin longer, they absorb slower. When we're looking at different oils, with plant oils in particular, there are various levels of saturation. I'm sure you've heard about saturated fat, like when we talk about butter and different types of fats that are in other oils, we have our unsaturated fats, which are the ones that kind of dry the fastest, they absorb the fastest, they're the lightest. They also are your most susceptible to going rancid, so you have to be careful when you use them in a formulation to make sure you have enough antioxidants to prevent that from happening because rancid oils can also cause irritation and sensitization.

Rachael: Then you have your polyunsaturated oils, which is more like your, I would say like your grape seed oil, things like that. Your more unsaturated ones. These are things like your rosehip or your hemp seed oil. Which they're fantastic, they have a lot of benefits, but they just dry really fast and you have to be careful with them. And then your more saturated oils, that's going to be your heavier, your solid lipids like your Shea butter, stuff like that. Then you have ones that are a combination. Most most of your plant oils are a combination of all of these different types of fatty acids, your monounsaturated, polyunsaturated, super unsaturated and then saturated. So it's the ratio of those different types of fatty acids that determine how that oil is going to behave on a person. And you can't just say, “Well, this oil is good for this skin type.” Or, “This oil is going to clog pores.” Or, “This oil is going to do this.” Because everyone has different oils in their skins.

Rachael: Yes, our lipid matrix, our lipid barrier, is made of similar fatty acids. The sebum that we produce naturally, our ceramides and the other things that make up the skin's natural moisturizing factor, but it's different for all of us and it changes on a regular basis. It can be affected by the food we eat. It can be affected by, as we've said, the products that we use. What the little microbes that live in the skin microbiome, what are they doing these days? That certainly can affect the levels of oils because some of those microbes actually like to eat the oils. That's their food.

Jennifer: Exactly. Well, so-

Rachael: So, yeah.

Jennifer: So based off of this, if that's the case, obviously I made a mistake. I'm using myself as the example here everyone. I'm sharing my journey.

Rachael: It happens to the best of us.

Jennifer: Happens to all of us. And I did have oily skin earlier in life, so it wasn't like this just happened. I always had oily skin. But again, I made this mistake thinking, well I thought sensitive skin products were cleaner. They were less harsh. And because I have a history of eczema, I figured that would be good. And I'm not doing this to scare anybody because obviously my circumstance is not something that happens to everyone. This is not like a super… At least I don't think so. A super common thing that happens.

Rachael: It's not. No, you're rare, sweetie.

Jennifer: I know, I know. But I felt that it was a really great opportunity to educate everyone listening, especially because the skin on our face is different from the rest of our bodies.

Rachael: Yes.

Jennifer: And we put a lot more money a lot of times, especially women as we age, into making sure that the skin on our face… We want to be radiant and feel good and whatnot.

Rachael: Want to glow.

Jennifer: But how do you… Like, if I was to go back to square one, Rachael. I think that was the mistake, right? I made an assumption and a lot of people are making those same assumptions of what's best for them and then choosing sensitive skin because they think that that's just what's best. So how do people begin to recognize what type of skin type they even have?

Rachael: Okay. So one thing I want to touch on before I answer that question.

Jennifer: Okay. Please do.

Rachael: You mentioned this earlier and I want to make sure people also understand that just because product is formulated for sensitive skin and it says it has anti-inflammatory and soothing ingredients, if it has too many of them, even if they're natural, if it has these complicated botanical blends and 10 different oils and all these other things and it… Whether it's natural or synthetic, if a product has that many ingredients, it is possibly going to be more likely to cause irritation and sensitization. And if you have a reaction, you won't be able to identify what it is that caused that reaction.

Rachael: So I always encourage people who have reactive or sensitized skin to look for smaller ingredient decks. Keep your formulations simple. Look for things that really contain much fewer ingredients, whether they're herbs, oils or synthetics. Which some of the products that are natural on the market still do contain synthetic ingredients. Not every synthetic ingredient is bad. We need some of them in a product depending on what type of a product it is, but we just want that list to be as short as possible.

Rachael: So back to understanding how to understand what kind of skin you have. I offer a method in my Create Your Skincare courses and I also have, I sell this actually as a little workbook series on rachaelpontillo.com, where I call it finding your synergistic skin combination. And then once you know that you can choose your ingredient profile based on what you find out about your skin. So I kind of call it my past, present, future approach to the skin because as you mentioned, you had oilier skin when you were younger, but the skin changes as we age. And also when we're looking at what we want to be using in our skincare ingredients, we don't want to only be looking at what we have right now. That's having an allopathic approach to skincare where we're looking at symptoms and we're only treating symptoms. We're not looking at how we got there or where we're going.

Rachael: So I always have people go through this process where they kind of go through their own skin history with what their skin did when they first began puberty. Was it oily? Did it stay the same? Did it stay baby soft and smooth and beautiful or did you start to get blackheads or maybe oily T zone, stuff like that? Then what happened deeper into your teen years? Were you one of those kids, like me, who had a face full of all sorts of nasty acne? I had the black heads, the white heads, the cystic-

Jennifer: Yeah, me too.

Rachael: Oil slick. Oh, it was so unpleasant. But then of course you have your lucky people who keep that porcelain skin all throughout and you're just like, “Grrr.” But then you also do have some people who have dry skin where they start to get kind of scaliness, cracking, peeling, it hurts to smile, that can develop at a younger age. So then we ask, well, what was going on in your life when that happened? Was it just a hormone change or did something happen? And then we look at, okay, are you someone who has had pregnancies? If so, how did that affect your skin? Have you ever had, hopefully not, but plenty of people do have, diseases that they get diagnosed with, whether it is an acute disease or a chronic disease or an autoimmune disease, where it changes their body chemistry. And that can produce an effect on the skin and the treatments that they undertake also can have an effect on the skin.

Rachael: So we look at all of those things to help you come up with what your skin combination is. What I found, again through years of working with people hands on and custom formulating for people, is that no one has just one thing going on with their face. They just don't. We don't have a skin type. We all have combination skin. We just have to figure out what that combination is. So for me personally, lately my skin's been doing interesting things where it's become a bit dryer and the texture has changed. And it's different from how my skin usually behaves this time of year. So I'm like, “Huh, wonder if something's going on in my gut?” Or, “What's maybe going on differently? I did change my oil blend. Maybe that wasn't the right blend.” So I actually just made a different one that was what I was previously using to see if that would be better.

Rachael: But I encourage people to use ingredients that really are known to be appropriate for whatever happens to be going on with their skin. And I have this little chart called an ingredients for your skin combination chart where I give recommendations based on the fatty acid composition as well as the phytochemistry and what my experience in working with these ingredients, whether it's herbs, waxes, butters, oils, clays, on different people, what that experience has been. So you can kind of check once you come up with your combination and cross-reference and be like, “Okay, well this is going on with my skin, this is going on with my skin.”

Rachael: And there are some oils, some herbs that kind of occur across different categories. So I always recommend choose multitasking ingredients that are appropriate for more than one skin combination when possible. And there are some ingredients like jojoba oil for example, hemp seed oil is another one, those are going to benefit most people unless they have an allergy. Whereas some of the oils like avocado oil, for example, even olive oil can be really great for people as long as they don't have acne. As long as they are not prone to acne or don't have active acne. Those are typical examples of how there are some that are known to be good for certain things but not necessarily good for another thing.

Rachael: Me, personally, I still have inherently oily skin even though it's doing different things. But I do use olive oil in my skincare products because I don't have active acne anymore and the olive oil really has helped to balance out that oil production. And maybe that's one of the reasons why it's not as oily as it used to be.

Jennifer: So I wanted to add to this because-

Rachael: Yeah.

Jennifer: I've been a big fan of putting oils on my face, right?

Rachael: Yeah.

Jennifer: So I was using… I think it's fair for people to understand what I was doing before and now how it's completely different because it freaked me out a little bit at first. But basically I was using a milk cleanser. So that doesn't mean there's milk in it-

Rachael: Right.

Jennifer: It's just like a milky consistency. I would rub it in my face, wipe it off. And then I was using this CBD oil blend of things that was meant for topical use. Look, I don't blame the products. It's not their fault per se. It's that I made some bad judgment calls and let this go way too long. And so I just want to be clear that the mistake has cost me… It has cost me hundreds of dollars. Probably $600 to $700, not even including… And that's just trying to correct the problem.

Rachael: Yeah.

Jennifer: It was a very costly mistake. And has resulted in… I have some scars now from having these things burned off my face that are probably not going to go away. And so it is what it is. I'm okay with that. That's life. But I just want to share this because I always got freaked out by the idea of using a bar soap. And Rachael had said to me, she's like, “Look, your skin's producing too much oil and you need to do something that's going to pull some of this out so that it just stops the over production.”

Jennifer: And so she recommended the black clay bar from Osmia, which I happen to have on hand. And that made a huge difference. It freaked me out, honestly, to be using a bar of soap.

Rachael: Well, yeah, because how many times have you heard that you should never use soap on your face?

Jennifer: Right. And then Rachael's like, “Listen, you're not putting oil on your face.” I had to use a hydrosol toner, a very specific type for my skin so that it would help to rebalance. This has even been a learning lesson for me as an adult of how to better take care of my skin. And then… And we'll go back into the process in a moment. But then Rachael put together for me, based off of her whole formula, she put together a moisturizer that has no oils in it and-

Rachael: Well, it has some.

Jennifer: It has a little bit, but-

Rachael: But very small percentage.

Jennifer: Right. So it's not-

Rachael: We focused more on humectants for you.

Jennifer: Right. So it's not predominantly oil based.

Rachael: Right.

Jennifer: And it is amazing. My skin quality within the course of 30 days after starting was completely different. I even had the glycerin or glycolic acid or whatever the heck the really harsh stuff I got from the dermatologist. They gave me Retin-A and then that stuff to put on my face, which completely dried out my skin to the point it was just unbearable. This, I have great supple skin. I don't have to wipe my skin because I'm like an oil slick and it's not causing more of those pores to form, those enlarged volcano pores.

Jennifer: But here's the thing I also learned from Rachael in this process. It's not just about what you wash your skin and then put on after afterwards. You have to re-tone the skin after you wash it because the pH shifts whenever you use. So Rachael, do you just want to talk about kind of the process? Like when you do wash your skin, what do you do?

Rachael: Okay, so as we've talked about, water has an alkaline pH and the skin needs to… Well the skin is more acidic. That is its environment. That is what helps it keep invaders out. That is what the microbes on the surface of the skin require to thrive. So when it comes into contact with things that are overly alkaline, like water from just washing, that can cause irritation just from that alkalinity. It can cause dry drying and irritation and throw things off balance.

Rachael: So this is what happens. This is actually why we have a toner in a three step skincare regimen, which is your basic cleanse, tone, moisturize, right? A lot of people think toner is unnecessary. I'm a big believer in toner. And the reason is because when you wash your face, even if you're using a “pH balanced cleanser”, and by the way most chemists pH balance to a seven. They don't pH balanced to a 4.5 to 5.5.

Jennifer: Oh my gosh.

Rachael: So when you see pH balanced-

Jennifer: Wow.

Rachael: It's still going to be too alkaline for the skin. And I asked a chemist about that at a conference and he's like, “Oh yeah, we have nice pH balanced to a seven.” I'm like, “What? Why? Why would you do that?” He's like, “Well, that's what everyone does.” I'm like, “Why?” Cosmetic chemists don't necessarily know that much about the skin. Just, not down on them, chemists are amazing, but when you have a chemist who knows about the skin, they make different decisions.

Rachael: So you want to be looking for things that are a lower pH and that's what a toner does. It's slightly acidic. So if you have temporarily raised the pH of your skin just from washing, using a toner that is slightly acidic, usually in the range of the skin's natural pH. And this is why I love hydrosols and herbal teas because so many of them are a lower pH. These are things that you can do to help kind of protect that pH balance of the skin. And then oils, most of them, not all of them, but most of them, do have a lower pH as well. So they can be really good for moisturizing. But if you are using a cream or lotion, you want to make sure whoever's making it understands that it needs to be a pH balance that's a little bit lower than seven, especially if it's something that's going to be staying on the surface of the skin.

Jennifer: Oh man, you are just a… You are a wealth of knowledge, Rachael. I mean, seriously, you guys, I was on my messenger, I'm like, “Rachael, I don't what to do.” And she literally just asked me a slew of questions and she's like, “Okay, I know what you need to do.” And that's why I wanted to have her here and talk about this because I recognize that a lot of us have eczema in different parts of our body or rashes everywhere else, but our face is just… It's our face. And for many of us we might be… I never had rashes on my face. Some people don't as well and yet we don't know what to do when it comes to these products. And then we think like, “Oh, well I'm just going to put all this oil on my face cause it's natural. It's just one ingredient.” And look what happened to me.
Jennifer: And so I wanted to make sure that you understand that it's okay if you're lost. Apparently this is a part of adulting that no one gives you a handbook on. Fortunately, Rachael has a bit of a handbook for us, and that's why I thought it'd be a great opportunity to have this conversation because don't end up like me having to go and get stuff burned off your face and spending hundreds of dollars.

Rachael: It's not fun.

Jennifer: It's not fun.

Rachael: It's really not fun.

Jennifer: No, it's not. And it's not to say that's going to happen to you, but if you find that your skin is going in the wrong direction when you start using products, that's a very clear sign that you need to figure out what's going on. And it can… Rachael, I think the other thing too is people a lot of times assume that because they go, “Oh, well it's got to be my gut. It's got to be…” And it could be.

Rachael: It could be.

Jennifer: But it also could be what you're putting on your skin. And I think a lot of times we dismiss that because we read, Oh, seabuckthorn oil and this oil, and we hear the magic of all these different products. It just might not be right for you.

Rachael: There are even genetic reasons why certain oils might not be right for people. I conducted an informal research study to look at how genetics informs skincare ingredients and how they work topically. And I'm not ready to release all of that information yet, but what I can tell you that's relevant to this conversation today is that there are some people who genetically cannot convert carotinoid antioxidants, which are the antioxidants that convert naturally into retinol or vitamin A, they just can't do that for whatever reason, genetically. So what we found during this project is that we thought, “Well, what if we apply carotinoids antioxidants topically? Will that help?” It did not.

Jennifer: Interesting.

Rachael: For many it caused irritant and even allergic reactions. I'm talking oils like seabuckthorn, rosehip seed, which normally would be some of my favorites to formulate with because they're just so nutrient rich and they're beautiful colors and they're beautiful, they're precious, they're gifts from nature, but they're not for everyone. And it was really aggravating because these are people who had wanted to use those because, in theory, looking at the chemistry, looking at even folklore as the uses, the folk uses of those oils in theory made perfect sense for their skin, but genetically they had this variant that made not a good idea,.so we took those oils out and the reaction went away.

Jennifer: Interesting. Wow. Well I think this has been a fantastic conversation. I feel like we have to dive into some more of this at a later date. I know you're going to be back. You always come back.

Rachael: Anytime.

Jennifer: I love having you back. For everybody who is listening, please go check Rachael out. We'll make sure to put the link directly to the whole little toolbox, Rachael's… I want to call it like Rachael's skin adulting course.

Rachael: I love it! Yes!

Jennifer: Because seriously guys, I got a crash course and I feel really lucky and blessed that I had Rachael by my side to help me with this because otherwise I was looking at… I mean fortunately I got to cap my skin problems at like $600-$700 but if I hadn't I was looking at major, major problems. So I don't want to see anybody else go through that and she is the resource that I would absolutely send you guys to. And you can check her out also on Instagram. She shares a lot of great stuff. Remember rachaelpontillo.com, createyourskincare.com. And if you are in the aesthetics, health coaches and aestheticians and such, you can go to the nutritionalaesthetics.com and check that out. I'm one of the advisory board members. I was so glad to join the organization. And Rachael's got a ton of great content online so we'll share all of that. Rachael, thank you so much for joining us.

Rachael: Thank you so much for having me, Jen. It was a pleasure.