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If you’ve ever googled “leaky gut” or “leaky gut diet” because you’ve seen wellness experts claim that leaky gut is why your skin is a mess…
This episode is for you.
To be fair, there’s a pretty big chance you have leaky gut.
BUT, it’s not a root cause of chronic eczema or psoriasis or any of the other skin issues we talk about on the show.
Leaky gut syndrome (also known more formally as gut permeability) is caused by other factors. So while it’s a problem, it’s just not THE problem.
So in today’s episode I’m sharing an interview that I did on the Balanced Bites podcast hosted by Liz Wolfe where we got into this topic along with others that I know will hit home for you.
It’s my hope that this perspective will offer you some much needed insight about what’s really causing skin problem. (If you want to learn more about this, JOIN ME HERE.)
So let’s dive in!
Or, listen on your favorite app: iTunes (Apple Podcasts) | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn | Subscribe on Android
In This Episode:
- My inspiration to work in the integrative health field (beyond my own skin problems)
- What functional medicine gets wrong about skin issues by treating them like autoimmunity + leaky gut
- Why an elimination diet + leaky gut diet often make skin worse
- Can you “starve” yeast if you have candida overgrowth?
- “Steroid phobia” + being traumatized by conventional medical system
Quotes
“Functional medicine does a really bad job of actually helping people understand chronic skin problems because they treat them like autoimmunity and they're not.”
“If you have chronic skin problems, it's likely you have leaky gut. You don't need to go do a test for it.”
Links
REGISTER NOW – Fix My Gut Workshop series starting January 8th!
Healthy Skin Show ep. 305: Eliminations Diets, Food Fear + Healing Skin Rashes {NEW RESEARCH}
Healthy Skin Show ep. 356: Troubleshooting Candida In Stool Tests (+ Other Labs)
Healthy Skin Show ep. 275: Why You're So Itchy (HINT: It's Probably Not Histamine)
Healthy Skin Show ep. 279: Chemical That Triggers Eczema (Oh My!)
370: Why The Leaky Gut Diet Doesn’t Work (And Other Ways Functional Medicine FAILS Eczema, Psoriasis + Other Skin Problems) {FULL TRANSCRIPT}
Welcome back to the episode 370 of the Healthy Skin Show podcast! In today’s episode, we’re switching things up a bit to share an interview I did on the Balanced Bites podcast hosted by Liz Wolfe. Liz asked me a ton of great questions about the connections between leaky gut, gut health and skin problems, the mental health impact from elimination diet, why people become afraid to go back to their doctor, and a number of other topics.
I figured this could be helpful for you hear, so Liz agreed to let me share our episode on my show! I’m very grateful for not only the invitation to come on her show, but her generosity in letting me share it with you.
So without further ado, let’s dive in!
Liz Wolfe (00:30)
Today's guest is Jennifer Fugo. Jen is a clinical nutritionist with a master's degree in human nutrition. And she's a licensed dietitian-nutritionist, and certified nutrition specialist. And her craft, her business, her profession, and her passion is helping adults who have been failed by conventional medicine figure out their chronic skin challenges. So we talk about a lot about different topics here.
I mean, we even talk about some of these silly diets some of us have been on. We talk about candida and yeast, but not in the way you might be used to. And Jennifer speaks some hard truths here in this episode. And let's get into this episode.
Let's talk about what you do now, because as a former eczema sufferer, this interview is a long time coming and I would love to hear from you. First of all, tell us what you do in general, and then I'm going to drill down to the more specific questions.
Jennifer Fugo (03:15)
So, in general, I work as a clinical nutritionist. I have a virtual practice with clients all over the world, and we help them deal with, manage, and ideally overcome chronic skin problems that have been plaguing them. Sometimes it's for maybe a year, but some individuals have had these issues since they were kids and they're like in their 60s now. And then I have the Healthy Skin show podcast, which I host. It's a weekly show and I love because I get to learn, I get to connect with people, I get to share research that has not yet made its way into the dermatologist office. I love being creative with how we approach these problems. My dad was a medical doctor and a surgeon, so I really know the conventional system very well and what to expect from it.
Jennifer Fugo (04:10)
I've also obviously been a patient myself, having gone through many different health challenges, including dyshidroidic eczema and hidradenitis suppurtiva, which were like my two big skin issues that I would say I've struggled with as an adult. But I absolutely am passionate about getting people back their life. And I was telling clients, I know that you want to get back to real living, and what real living means to me is not like this glamorized social media highlight reel of your life. It's about being present to your kids. It's about showing up and being able to enjoy vacations, about being able to just get on a plane ride and go visit relatives that you haven't seen in a long time or maybe a friend or go out to dinner with friends or your spouse or whatever. Like, we don't get back that time.
And while, yes, other health issues can certainly put a damper on that, I will say skin issues are most of the time, not always, but most of the time are very visible and depending on the severity. And some individuals get to the point where they can't work, they can't do anything. And that's really, to me, so deeply saddening that There is no answers. It's just about management. So I like to look for. I'm not saying there's quick fixes. I actually think the quick fixes, unfortunately, are the medications out there. But I love to figure out ways for the individual to make the decision of what's best for them. And if it's mixing conventional and the meds with the diet and the lifestyle and maybe doing supplements and things like that's cool. I'm there for that.
If somebody just wants to do natural, cool. I just believe that we should have more options than we have. And that's what I'm really passionate about, helping people discover.
Liz Wolfe (05:55)
Okay, I have a very random question, and then I'll loop back the more relevant stuff. You are a trained dietitian, is that correct?
Jennifer Fugo (06:01)
No. So. So I have a master's degree in human nutrition. I then went on to get the Certified Nutrition Specialist designation, which is sort of like the sister to the RD or registered dietitian. So it's the national licensure for a clinical nutritionist. And then within my state, I'm an LDN, which is a licensed dietitian-nutritionist. Like, to make it any more confusing…
Liz Wolfe (06:23)
Yes. Okay. This is what exactly what my question was, because I was like, okay, I saw the word dietitian, and I guess really it doesn't actually matter who's helping you. Like, who is actually helping you make progress. That's what matters. It doesn't so much matter. But you're very highly educated. And so my question is, as a highly educated individual, at what point did you realize, I guess, that there is something to the natural stuff blending? Maybe both. Because, you see, there's a division, right? Folks who are highly credentialed, I would say, like, you are, like, yes, highly educated, but also highly credentialed. There's. They don't always occur in the same place at the same time. I feel like you don't have a whole lot of highly credentialed people that are open to exploring that natural angle or blending the natural and the more conventional.
So how did you get to that spot?
Jennifer Fugo (07:20)
I think having a father that was, as I said, a doctor and a surgeon was interesting because I graduated college and because of 9/11 and whatnot, I didn't end up following my desire to go into fashion design. And I moved back home and I needed a job. So I went to work at my dad's practice. And there were certain cases that I still remember that he had, like, weird cases where they could not figure out what was wrong with the person. One woman, she would have such bad blepharospasms is the official term. But basically she. She would, like, clench her eyes closed, and it was involuntary and she couldn't open. Can you imagine driving and your eyes just close and you literally cannot open them? So they were like, well, you could do a Botox injection. We could do all these different things.
Jennifer Fugo (08:09)
And so finally I was like, I'm just curious, is there anything that also could be a factor? And I started looking things up online and, oh, magnesium deficiency could be a factor. Now, I'm not saying that's what would help this person because I don't quite remember the end of where she ended up, because I know she had to go to a neurologist and all this other stuff, but that was the beginning of. There's just this curiosity of could there be another way that could be as helpful, maybe sometimes more helpful, or maybe it in. In conjunction with. Could be helpful. And my dad also had some interest in this, but he was conventionally trained. He was constantly afraid that if he went too far out of his lane, that he could get in trouble with the medical board.
So he was always afraid to recommend supplements and things like that, even though, like, he was within his right to be able to do it, but he just was not trained in it. So I am a naturally curious person. I'm always asking, what if? Always, what if a problem only exists because we don't have a solution yet? Like, some people who have eczema, and let's say we have five people have eczema, they could all have different reasons for why they have eczema, and that's why, for example, like, one solution doesn't work for all. So my brain always goes, well, what is going on? What could be driving this? What if we tried this? And so in my practice, it was like there was no training for skin. I'm just being entirely honest.
Jennifer Fugo (09:34)
Functional medicine does a really bad job of actually helping people understand chronic skin problems because they treat them like autoimmunity and they're not. They're not. I get that the autoimmune Paleo protocol became this standard for basically all chronic illness. But, there are so many people who do these more restrictive diets that do not get better and actually get worse, and nobody's holding space for any of them. So my question was always, well, why does that happen? What could be going on? I'm just curious. And so that drove me, looking at research, wanting to start talking to dermatologists and gastroenterologists. And now the Healthy Skin show has almost 350 episodes of all of this wild stuff, to some degree, that people are like, “I've never heard of this.”
And if I do attend dermatology conferences, inevitably there are doctors and physicians, assistants and nurse practitioners that walk up to me and they're like, my gosh, I love your show. I learned so much. And I'm, like, so honored because it's really not about me. It's about connecting people with better solutions, better care, better answers so that they can be the best mom. They can go on a vacation. They can go out to dinner. To me, the little things, we don't get that time back. Nobody gets a cookie for suffering, right? We really need to figure out solutions. So that's where it started. That's why I'm just curious.
Liz Wolfe (10:57)
Well, I love that. And you were talking about how no one thing works for everyone. So I want to lean into that. Because you do not agree. We're talking about auto Paleo. A lot of what people say, it's. Everything comes down to gut health. It's all your gut, which is kind of like we're just lumping everything we can't figure out into, like. Well, I guess the trillions of microorganisms in your body aren't behaving the way we want them to. Like, maybe if you take this probiotic, you'll be better. Maybe if you drink all this broth, you'll better. Like, we have such inadequate solutions for this ecosystem within an ecosystem of our gut. And it's just crazy to me that this is the best that we have to hand people. But like you were saying, there's no one solution to everything.
So is it not always gut? Is it not always you need to cut out more foods? Like, talk to me about that.
Jennifer Fugo (11:45)
No. So it's not always the gut. I. I could say some probably pretty controversial statements.
Liz Wolfe (11:49)
Do it. Do it.
Jennifer Fugo (11:52)
Number one, if you have chronic skin problems, it's likely you have leaky gut. You don't need to go do a test for it or pay for a test for it. And frankly, I don't really think it's all that important to, like, definitively know you have leaky gut. Great. What's causing the leaky gut? That's more important. I like priorities. So you can drink all the bone broth you want. You can take all the glutamine you want, but if you don't remove the actual problems and address them. You aren't healing your gut. So doing a leaky gut supplement is not going to fix your gut if the problem is still there. So there's a lot of people in, like, the functional and integrative space, and I have a lot of colleagues, so I'm not throwing shade at everybody.
Jennifer Fugo (12:32)
But I think that we've painted the skin community. And when I say skin, I want to be pretty specific because I work with eczema, psoriasis, rosacea, chronic hives, which, like, kind of falls under the urticaria umbrella with dermatographia and angioedema. I also have worked with dandruff, seborrheic dermatitis, some tinea versicolor, and even something lesser known called topical steroid withdrawal syndrome, which can happen due to, like, a lot of corticosteroid and glucocorticoid steroid exposure. And so the big mistake is that everybody's got a histamine problem. Everybody's got a gut problem. And those are the reasons why we have these issues. You're itchy because you got a histamine intolerance, which is not true. For some people, it's true, but not everybody. For most people, it's not actually accurate.
And while, yes, there is a gut component, we have to break that into segments because there's the gut function piece. So how well does your gut work? Is it doing the things it's supposed to do in the right order that it's supposed to do them? And is there a microbiome, dysbiosis, or imbalance piece? But those two things alone are not the main drivers. There are so many other factors drive skin issues. And there are a lot of people, as I already mentioned, who do all of these different. Like, they have eczema, they'll do the eczema diet. They have psoriasis, they'll do Dr. Pagano's diet or AIP. You got rosacea diet and all these different diets, and you got carnivore, and the oxalate diet. I mean, we could go on and on.
Liz Wolfe (14:11)
What more can we cut out? Yeah, let's cut out more stuff.
Jennifer Fugo (14:14)
And unfortunately, a lot of people get worse. And you don't ever see that on somebody's Instagram. They're not like, oh, I promote this elimination diet. Look at these people got worse. No one's ever gonna tell you that. So the only way I came to discover all of this is because, I wish this wasn't the case, but I'm the person that people go to when they failed all of the different diets, they've seen functional medicine doctors, they've seen different nutrition practitioners who are more integrative or functional. They've tried all the different things. And I, I guess I am the person. They're like, well, nobody else could figure this out. So can you help me? I really wish people didn't wait that long because then it's a really sometimes a really big mess to unwind because of how long things have been let go.
Jennifer Fugo (15:05)
But you can. If you have gut dysbiosis, if you have imbalance of gut flora, it could be low commensals, it could be high commensals, you could have parasites, you could have candida or combo of all of these different things, Sibo and H. Pylori that impacts your liver, it impacts liver detoxification. You're not going to unwind and fix and support liver detox by taking milk thistle or doing dandelion root tea. There are nutrients required that get depleted as a result of how many specifically benzoates that get produced by bacteria in your GI tract that gets sent to your liver through the portal vein that have to go through phase two liver detox. It requires nutrients and you're not getting those nutrients from liver detox herbs. It's a lot of times why people start reacting to liver detox formulas.
You can have thyroid imbalances that obviously need to be addressed. I had one psoriasis client, really depressed, which depression usually, not always, but can go hand in hand with psoriasis. Her TSH was at 33. No one had checked her thyroid panel. And it's so common to have a variety of factors. And one of those issues can be external things like skin infections can be a reason for flare ups. You can have the allergies to pollen, animals, etc. A lot of times people have already had those ruled out into various chemicals and products.
Jennifer Fugo (16:45)
But there are like I had a really fascinating doctor from the NIH on my post called Dr. Ian Myles and he talked about this research that he did playing this really weird connection between a chemical being released, especially in areas where there was high wildfire smoke in the air and incidents called diisocyanates. Hope I said that correctly. And in those areas where there's high levels of diisocyanates in the air and those can be produced, as I said, wildfires can be in your paint, your lacquers, all these different. Even materials that are clothes are made out of in the home. If you live by a highway. So exhaust can also produce this. You have a higher incidence of eczema. And that's like wild. And we're not having those conversations at all. We're just like, how can we diet our way out of it? So I was really curious if what I was seeing was accurate or not.
And so I partnered with a team, a research team from UC Davis with Dr. Raja Sivamani as the lead dermatologist on this. And we surveyed over 600 people who actually have chronic skin issues. And what we found was staggering because I, I was like, hey, I think there's a problem where we're actually perpetuating disordered eating habits by telling everybody that it's just a diet problem. And diet's really the only thing you can do once you've already like chemicals out of your house, you change your body care and skincare and cleaning products, etc. Found was that first of all, the younger you are, especially like 18 to 24, the more susceptible you are to disordered eating patterns when you use elimination diets to try to fix your skin or manage your skin.
Jennifer Fugo (18:25)
Like over 82% of those in the 18 to 24 year old bracket had a negative association with food. Like, that's shocking. And it got better as you got older. But even 55 to 64 year olds were still at 47% of that. It's almost 50% of people who are using these diets now have this negative association with food fear, etc. If you have an eating disorder or a history of eating disorders, over 60% of people who had an eating disorder now have a negative association with food, again from using elimination diets. And if you didn't have a previous history of an eating disorder, it's still over 54%. So here's the question to nutrition professionals, and especially I say this to functional doctors who do not have nutrition training because you don't.
Physicians do not get much nutrition training unless they go and do like a master's in nutrition. Like Dr. Jolene Brighten has actual training in nutrition, but that's not the norm for especially MDs and DOs. I know because my dad was a doctor. Also speaks to those who are health coaches, and I say this with love, but they also do not have training. And there's a lot of people just saying, “oh, eliminate these things” without understanding that we shouldn't race for your health should not be to become afraid of food. To me, that just does not seem like an appropriate bargain. And the eating disorder behavior or disordered Eating behavior does not just disappear. Once you get better, it sticks with you. The challenge is that we blame food because we go, “oh, I ate gluten, I ate eggs, I ate dairy. And I had this reaction. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure it was that.”
Jennifer Fugo (20:26)
So I'm going to take it out. It must be bad. What if it's not actually the food's fault? What if it is? What happens once it gets into your digestive tract? There's digestive dysfunction, which doesn't break it down correctly, and it then intermingles with your gut microbiome, which also could be messed up. And there's this inappropriate interaction that then causes this huge release of inflammatory agents that your body produces, trying to deal with whatever happened. Is it really the food's fault? In my view, no. So I'm not saying that we shouldn't remove. Like, if you have legit ige food allergies or you're lactose intolerant, obviously with intolerances, it can be a little easier because we can supplement with enzymes.
But the food sensitivity thing has gotten to a place where it's causing people to restrict excess amounts of foods, which is actually at their detriment because of the massive disordered eating patterns. It creates the food fear it creates, and it limits nutrition, it limits diet diversity, which is crucial to a healthy microbiome in and of itself. I just so, to me, diet is the last thing that I really want the. The lever that I want to pull on. I also am going to just say this out loud, and we can have a discussion or not, but you can't starve Candida. We need to stop saying that.
Liz Wolfe (21:56)
Yes.
Jennifer Fugo (21:57)
Nobody is starving. They're like the cockroaches of the gut.
Liz Wolfe (22:01)
They are the most ancestral organisms in the world. They know how to survive.
Jennifer Fugo (22:07)
Yes. You cannot starve them. Stop thinking that's what you're doing. They are the cockroaches. They will be around long after we're all gone.
Liz Wolfe (22:16)
Yes.
Jennifer Fugo (22:17)
And by saying, I can't have any sugar. Gosh, I get in so many arguments on YouTube and Instagram about this, but either way, I. I think we have to come up with a better way that does not sacrifice the joy that one gets from nourishment as well as the community. I mean, I. As a kid, I don't know if your family did this, but on Sundays, we would all get together as a family. And when we start going, I can't have this, can't have that, you sit at the table and don't feel very connected to those around you. And it does have an impact on your community and your sense of belonging. I'm not saying that you should eat the hydrogenated fats and other things that we know are probably not the best choices, but we're talking about strawberries, lettuce, beans, nuts.
Like, I could go through any food. We probably both could and go, oh, but this is bad because of this reason or that reason. That is a problem. That is a slippery slope right there.
Liz Wolfe (23:23)
It absolutely is. And that's not to say that if something bothers you or hurts you or causes you pain, you shouldn't eliminate it. But like you're saying, take it out while you figure out all the other things, but to continue to take out thing after thing that is nutritious, that plays an important role or plays some kind of role in our overall health and just continuing to do that. And maybe we should say, like, if you keep having to take stuff out and become more and more restrictive, surely you can see that there is an issue far beyond food, that there's something going on in your gut, something with how your body is processing these foods and these nutrients, and that it's not about, well, what can I eliminate next?
Jennifer Fugo (24:09)
And also I have plenty of eczema clients who got worse doing the eczema diet, AND can eat dairy and eggs without any issue. I have plenty of psoriasis clients that actually do really well on red meat and can tolerate to some degree, usually some of the nightshade family, and some do really well with dairy. So this idea that you have to follow, this little graphic or idea of what your diet should look like is not true. It should be reflective of your personal needs. It should change with time. It should change with age. I frankly think it should change with seasons if you live in an area that actually experiences seasonality. And I don't think that there's necessarily one food. I mean, I could say maybe junk food, processed, highly processed foods. If that's the majority of your diet, that's probably more of a problem than eating a tomato.
Liz Wolfe (25:05)
Those damn tomatoes. We need to get rid of the tomatoes. Get. They just need to be wiped off the face of the earth. I love what you said about Candida. This is such an important point. For a while, it was Candida diets. And. And now we talk about mold a lot. And then we talk about. What's the other thing everybody's talking about right now? Mold.
Jennifer Fugo (25:24)
MCAS.
Liz Wolfe (25:26)
Yes. And there has always been, like, one layer further. Like, maybe this is what it is. This is what it is. And then the solution is always something dietary. I think we have this broader conversation around gut health going on more so now. But at the same time, one thing that I've noticed is that we don't have a. Or at least you correct me. I actually want to hear from you. Do we really have that many tools for correcting gut health? I mean, really at a deep level? Probiotics. Right. Just because we can stabilize a couple of strains of bifidobacteria doesn't mean that's going to solve all your problems. You talked about the problems of your commensals are too low, maybe your commensals get too high. It is such a complex. I mean, it's a biome. It's so complex.
And do we really have the tools that are sensitive enough to make a difference?
Jennifer Fugo (26:21)
That's a good question. So my personal feeling is that we have a lot of tools, but we oftentimes have biases against one or the other, or we give way too much credit to certain things. Like you were saying probiotics. I think we actually give way too much credit to probiotics and to fiber. I'm not saying they're not helpful, but I mean, there's plenty of commercials for like, take this probiotic, it'll heal your skin. And that's, that's like not really accurate if it doesn't help. The reason is you got a bigger problem than what a probiotic is going to do. And that's oftentimes the case. So I think part of the issue is that, and I will say this to be skin specific, but I think this could actually apply to other conditions, probably like pcos, thyroid issues. Like, I specialize in skin.
I've spent since 2017 working on and I understanding and researching and testing out all of these different things. The way I look at a skin case is vastly different than how I used to address gut cases, because they're very different issues. Gut cases tend to be just gut focused, whereas skin. There's so many other systems that are involved. And I would assume that if other practitioners that really specialize in certain areas, they also notice certain nuances to cases that won't just show up in testing. So that's number one. It's also about how we look at testing and how we dig into the case. I don't know who knows this anymore, but a lot of practitioners don't actually know how to read the tests. So you pay.
Jennifer Fugo (27:57)
I don't know if they know this, but you know, it's important to know because like I end up, I literally work with the people that have seen a lot of people and I work with doctors and doctors come to me because I have a very good reputation. I have a client right now who's a surgeon. I have another client that's an md And I'm not saying I'm smarter than them. I'm just creative and they like that. And they know that I'm always looking into things and we have a really great conversations. And so the problem is that people go into functional and integrative medicine. They might do a training or two and they're like, okay, great, guess what? I could call the lab when I get the results back and talk for 10 minutes and tell somebody very briefly about my case.
And then they'll tell me what to do and I'll come back and I'll hand this person these suggestions. That is what most of the protocols are or they came from some sort of canned manual of different protocols that somebody else created. They're not personalized. So they don't have any training in herbs. They don't have any understanding of dosing consequences of to some of these herbs, which some can have like, can really mess up your liver. You shouldn't be taken at different times. Like if you're pregnant or breastfeeding, who.
Liz Wolfe (29:07)
Can you throw a couple names out.
Jennifer Fugo (29:09)
There, like Uva Ursi, for example, that if you take that long term and that can cause liver damage. And like a lot of herbs, you have to be very careful. You either shouldn't take them when you're pregnant or breastfeeding and they usually have pretty good warnings on it. But a lot of people don't look them up. I mean especially the first trimester, you should not like herbs. You, you need to work with somebody who's like an herbalist who can guide you. Because that's like a very delicate time. We all know that's a very delicate time. Things can go wrong. It's likely going to go wrong then. So we don't want herbs to be a factor.
You can do damage with herbs if you over supplement and with too high of doses, you can wipe out your gut microbiome with herbs too, especially if you don't know what you're doing. But the point is that I saw a client yesterday. She went to a very famous doctor who's all over social media, is one of the who's who of social media. She went to his clinic. Well, I'VE had a lot of clients that have gone to his clinic. And she got all this testing done, paid thousands of dollars for it. And they told her that at the end of the day, they really couldn't pinpoint what was wrong. Nothing jumped out at them. And I was like, really?
Liz Wolfe (30:17)
Maybe they're finding too much time on social media.
Jennifer Fugo (30:20)
I have no idea. She didn't see the doctor himself, but it's his clinic, and these are his practitioners. They completely missed the fact that stool test showed she had yeast. Her organic acid testing had high levels of D-Arabinitol, which is a yeast byproduct. She had mitochondrial dysfunction. Looking at the different nutrient markers for the different intermediary steps of the Krebs cycle, she had all sorts of things wrong. And they just basically gave her five supplements that were nutritive and said, okay, here you go. And that's what she's been taking for the past, like, four, three, four years. And so now she's at a point where she has. I'm not even joking, Eczema rosacea. She's had bouts with Grover's disease, which is a very uncommon disease where you get these, like, kind of almost like blisters on the skin. She has folliculitis.
She's got all this stuff going on, and this has just been left to sit. I don't even know what she had going on prior to that from, like, a testing standpoint. And I looked at that, and I was like, how was I, in two minutes, able to pick out all this stuff? And so my point is here, if you have to call the lab to ask them what to do, you really have no clue. I don't think you can ask a practitioner, like, hey, do you call the lab to find out what my results say, or do you actually do this yourself? I look at everything through a skin lens. I literally sat and researched all the different types of bacteria that show up, for example, on a GI map, because I wanted to understand how they could potentially impact skin.
Jennifer Fugo (31:49)
Could they actually elicit a cytokine response? So cytokines are inflammatory messengers that are generated by your body in response to something that's either overgrown or shouldn't be there. And cytokines are very important for skin problems because all the biologic medications, generally speaking, are targeting those cytokines. So it's really important to understand what could be driving them. So if you don't know, this might be why it's sometimes nice to be like, oh, well, I'll go to my local person or I'll go to this person I saw on social media, but I don't know what their training is. So just be aware that not everyone's training is the same. People's training is vastly different. And there are very few people, very few. And I am friends with all the folks who are really knowledgeable in at least chronic skin problems.
They're a very few of us that actually understand how to look at the testing and the case and the history and all the other factors and actually give you a picture of what could be going on under the surface. Because those nutritive things like take a probiotic, try some vitamin D, try some evening primrose oil or some borage oil and take some Omega 3. Like that's not going to fix it. Well, I know, but seriously, it's a problem because you spend 5, 6, 7, $8,000.
Liz Wolfe (33:11)
Oh, and more than that, I was just talking to my dear friend who, she hasn't had chronic skin issues, but she's had chronic health issues and she quantified it. She spent over $100,000 over the last however many years, maybe decade, trying to figure out problems, and literally it got her nowhere. So it's just wild. And, you know, I'm guilty of some of this stuff. You know, I had a skincare guide many years ago. I like to think maybe I, I advanced some of the conversation around skin care at that time. But for me, certain things I think were that simple. I developed some skin conditions, I incorporated some different nutrients. I wasn't so far gone. But you're talking about seeing people that have been on these supplements that people, like, shrug their shoulders and like, here, these will probably work.
See you in four years. People that are so far gone that have not been helped or been able to figure out how to help themselves.
Jennifer Fugo (34:01)
Yes. And also, like, skin infections are a real problem in this space. And if you're not knowledgeable on what that looks like, you'll think the person is in a flare. And so now I just know because I'm in the process of bringing on some new practitioners and going through lots and lots of resumes and just seeing missed, very obvious, but missed opportunities to be like, this person has a skin infection. I'm fairly certain they should see a doctor and like that. Instead, it's like, I think we should look at their gut. Maybe we should look at what they're putting on topically. I'm like, send them to the doctor.
Liz Wolfe (34:33)
What is that? What does that look like? What, what is that? Red flag?
Jennifer Fugo (34:37)
So a skin infection, a lot of times looks like pain. So pain. Your skin hurts. Number one, it's usually severely itchy. Itchy to the point that it's even sometimes deeper than the skin. It will not stop. It is relentless. It will keep you up at night to the point where you are tearing at your skin. Like you're literally clawing and making things worse because of how itchy it is. Sometimes the skin will burn, sometimes, not always. There will be oozing. And a lot of times, like, the. The hallmark red flag is if the ooze is golden, there can also be heat. Sometimes that skin area will feel hot. Those are usually the red flags. And a lot of times, like, we've had clients where we'll start a protocol, and then three days later, they'll be like, hey, I started this.
And all of a sudden. All of a sudden, my skin's going crazy. I'm like, okay, stop the protocol. Let me know tomorrow how you're doing. And they're like, oh, it's still really bad. I'm like, go to the doctor. You have a skin infection. So I get it, because people are traumatized, and I have a lot of dermatologist colleagues, so I'm not saying this to throw any shade at anyone, but there are patients who have been traumatized by not feeling heard and not feeling listened to. And so at a certain point, we have to acknowledge reality that they don't want to go back because they feel like they're being gaslit and not being heard, and they're just being handed more steroids, which a lot of people are starting to become uncomfortable with. And I understand that, but we need doctors.
Jennifer Fugo (36:10)
I can't help with a skin infection. I've had clients who actually ended up letting it go to a point that they needed to be on IV antibiotics. That's not a good place to be. Like, that's. That can be serious. So. So those are. That's one factor. Another factor is. And this kind of goes to that tremendous amount of itchiness, I think it's worthwhile to say that there's a lot of things that can cause itch. So skin infections are one thing. The other thing is that when we destroy skin because we're itching. And again, this is not your fault, by the way. It's not your fault. I know everybody goes, stop scratching. But it's not always that simple, because people will literally scratch themselves to bits while they're sleeping. Like, that's how bad itching can be. You may not even realize you're doing it.
But when we have damaged nerve endings and they begin to regrow in the skin, that's itchy. Why do you think we, like, pick at our scabs? It's itchy. New tissue growing back is an itchy process, unfortunately. And then also what was really fascinating to me, I interviewed Dr. Shawn Kwatra, who he used to be at Johns Hopkins, and he ran their itch lab, but he's now, I think, at the University of Maryland.
Liz Wolfe (37:22)
Their itch lab?
Jennifer Fugo (37:23)
Their itch lab.
Liz Wolfe (37:24)
There's an itch lab?
Jennifer Fugo (37:25)
Yes, he studies itch. He's like the guy in the world who studies itch. And he is. He also has eczema and chronic hives. So he actually gets it. He is, like, personally curious about this and what he said. He had presented this actually at the Eczema Expo back in 2022. I saw him present. And what was fascinating about his presentation on itch was that most. Most itch is not histamine driven. And so for everybody who's like, oh, you have eczema because you have histamine intolerance, that's not accurate.
You can't use itch as a justification for having histamine issues because itch is more so driven by other factors, one of which, and this was like one of the coolest things to get like a MD derm to say was his idea was that because the vagus nerve goes from the brain all the way and innervates all throughout the GI tract, it's a two way communication system. And if you have dysbiosis there, if you have unpleasant bacteria and friendly bugs, whatever, it's communicating signals to your brain, but your brain is misreading or mistranslating those signals as itch. And so I have worked with clients who have like, pretty significant fungal overgrowth or parasites, for example, and they will be like, oh, my gosh, I feel like I have bugs crawling under my skin.
Jennifer Fugo (38:50)
Which most people, when we think about that, we're like, oh, that sounds like, you know, like people would be like, oh, you're crazy. That's what that sounds like. You're not crazy. Like, that's a legit experience. And it could be if there's no infection present on the skin, it's itself, it could be a sign that there is actual internal dysbiosis, that your nervous system is translating as itch. And this feeling of bugs, like, you just can't. You're just like, so itchy. The other factor that I will Also say is these skin medications that are prescribed all have side effects. And so a lot of mischaracterizations of cases are, oh, you have severe eczema, presenting with really severe head toe rashes that are really bad.
And when in actuality I mentioned earlier, it's something called topical steroid withdrawal syndrome because they don't know that you can become essentially kind of addicted topical steroids. So hydrocortisone is actually man made cortisol. And there's a lot of thought around this. There's a lot of work being done to actually turn this into a medical diagnosis right now. So there's doctors working on diagnostic criteria. Like it's so cool I get to like know these people and like ask them questions. But if you address somebody with topical steroid withdrawal or TSW like you would eczema, they're never going to get better. And in fact they might actually get worse. You can't do liver detoxes on them. You can't do heavy metal cleanses, you can't do like heavy duty herbs and whatnot.
Jennifer Fugo (40:24)
So I think this is where if you really have a skin issue, I think this is where like we're saying if you have a thyroid problem and thyroid is like hypothyroidism or Hashimoto's and that's your predominant concern, find somebody that really understands and specializes in thyroid issues. If you've got skin issues, find somebody that really specializes in skin issues. Because the way that we look at cases and the knowledge that we bring to the table is vastly different. I would never say, oh, I'm a Hashimoto's expert. I'm sure there's plenty of things that I don't know. I learned many things from the guests who come on my show about the thyroid.
But this is part of the nuance to it is that the way I look at stool testing, the way I look at blood labs, the way I look at somebody's case is vastly different because of patterns and because of research and because of all the knowledge that we have from trial and error and what we see that actually works with diet, what doesn't work with diet and how to deal with it and what test to even ask for. It's complex.
Liz Wolfe (41:23)
It is. Okay, well you've said a couple times there are so many systems that are involved. So maybe this is different from condition to condition. Like I'm going to say it wrong. Hidradenitis suppurativa. I'm just going to call it HS from now on. I've always struggled with that. And I'm. I'm good at pronouncing things and I've always struggled with that. So there's psoriasis, there's HS, there's eczema, there's all of these different things. Are there common threads of the. So quote, so many systems that are involved. Are these systems involved in all of those things? Are there different things going on in each one of these, I don't know, verticals, whatever you want to call them?
Jennifer Fugo (42:00)
Yeah, yeah, they're. That's a. That's actually a really interesting way to put it. So, yes, there are commonalities and then there are new. There's nuance.
Liz Wolfe (42:08)
Yeah.
Jennifer Fugo (42:08)
Damn it.
Liz Wolfe (42:09)
Why is there always nuance?
Jennifer Fugo (42:10)
No, I know there's always nuance, but that's what makes this beautiful in a sense. And that is what explains why there is no one solution. So generally speaking, I do think gut is probably worthwhile to investigate for most if you've already eliminated, like with eczema, if you've already eliminated allergies as a problem. And to know if you don't have food allergies, you don't have environmental allergies. You’ve not improved or can’t sustainable stop the eczema diet. You've “cleaned up” the cleaning products. But I think for most, the gut is 100% worth considering for most of these cases. I would say 95% have some type or level of phase two liver detoxification overload, where they don't have enough nutrients in order to process what the liver is supposed to be processing. So we do end up with essentially a backup of toxic burden within the liver because there's two phases within the liver.
Jennifer Fugo (43:07)
Then there's phase three, which is elimination. So either way, usually phase two liver detox is the easiest thing for us to take action on because it's nutrient driven. Gut function or gut dysfunction is something that tends to show up nutrient deficiencies. Not always, but usually there's some level of nutrient deficiencies. And then in terms of thyroid dysfunction, that would probably be the other thing I would definitely look at now. Genetics. Sure, you could have a genetic snp, but like, we can't change our genes. And at the end of the day, I think sometimes we get too hung up with focusing on the genetic lottery that we did or did not win. And especially when it comes to like, is that why I have psoriasis? I don't think that's something you should lean on.
I don't think you should ever buy into the idea that you just have eczema because it's genetic. I Literally have had a doctor who, the interview's not out, who said, like, we did a mass disservice to the public by telling everyone that this is genetic. He's like, there's so many factors that are not genetic and that made people believe that they just have to manage things for the rest of their life. But there are environmental factors that can shift things. So I'll give you a quick couple quick examples. So with psoriasis, there's a lot that happens with IL-17 and IL-23. There are two cytokines that actually are specifically targeted with different biologic drugs. There's also tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF-a), which is another target. And so cytokines are inflammatory messengers.
Jennifer Fugo (44:39)
Let's say, for example, that you have too much yeast hanging out in your GI tract. Okay, so like, someplace it could be in the small intestine, could be in the large intestine, could be in both, it doesn't matter. But let's just say you have too much yeast. Your body sees that, and it's like, you know what? We need some help. We need some help like dealing with this with some crowd control. And so it starts sending emails. They're not really emails, but they're cytokines. And these little messengers go out into the body trying to recruit help from our different immune cells to deal with what's happening in the GI tract. It just so happens, unfortunately, that those cytokines end up in the skin, triggering different issues. So there's some interesting research where sometimes plaques can actually be more infiltrated with, like, fungal organisms.
But it is not uncommon to find fungal overgrowth within the GI tract of those with psoriasis. I'm not saying that's the only problem. So please don't assume that from my. From what I just said, you can have many different issues.
Liz Wolfe (45:32)
It's yeast, everyone. Jennifer says it's yeast. And you need to go on a candida elimination diet.
Jennifer Fugo (45:38)
Yes, elimination diet. That'll fix you. No. And so that can be really helpful in addressing the liver piece along with gut function, gut dysfunction, and gut microbiome. And then figuring out some of the other pieces if there's nutrients missing, etc. When you go to HS. HS is interesting. I think the research is pretty new to HS right now. So one cool thing is that. So you can get this. You can ask your doctor for this, whether they do it or not. Different story. But there's something called the Acros anti Saccharomyces cerevasae antibody. It's a blood test. And some individuals with HS, especially those who are very triggered by yeast in their food. So any yeasted foods at all may show positive to this. This is actually triggered by yeast that occurs within the body. And so that could be.
If you are positive for that could mean that doing a lower yeast diet, which, I'm just gonna be honest, sucks, by the way. I'm not saying it doesn't. Could be helpful. Dealing with the yeast could be helpful. And then also some supplementing. Okay, so you have to work with somebody because there is a fine line here. But higher supplementation levels of zinc specifically may be helpful for those with hs. And I'm talking, like, way higher than the upper limits that are normally recommended. But again, you got to be careful here because you have to balance this with copper levels. So, right. There's always consequences. There's nuance. It's like, it's not just do this and you're fixed. So that's really interesting. And there's research showing that the fluid inside the HS lesions is actually like, there's bacteria and stuff that's in there.
Jennifer Fugo (47:21)
It's cool, but not cool to the person who's dealing with it. They're just like, can please help me? I find it interesting, but I must. I'm a step removed from it. And I understand that with eczema, you have different pictures. A lot of people have tried AND failed to get better using an eczema diet. Not everybody has a histamine problem. Some people have really significant gut dysbiosis in addition to the liver issues, the gut dysfunction, it's really common. Not everyone has low stomach acid, but a lot of our clients, at least in my practice and I work with people worldwide who have H. Pylori, and they might even show negative on a test. But as you start to go through their case, sometimes I have to weigh, like, what's more important? Do we ignore certain factors because the test says that it's not there? And yet they improve after we actually address it.
So we have to be able to outsmart the tests. They're not the end all, be all. They're not perfect. They all have pros and cons to them. With chronic hives and urticaria, it's not that you have histamine intolerance. You have histamine overload. There is so much histamine, usually within the GI tract, that your body and your DAO cannot handle it. DAO is diamine oxidase enzyme. It's not a deficiency of dao. That's why a lot of people don't find that the enzyme supplementing with it actually helps. It's because there's just so much histamine period, even sometimes after doing a low histamine diet that they're still having eruptions. And that's where you really have to look for organisms that either cause mast cell destabilization and or produce histamine themselves.
Jennifer Fugo (48:53)
And so you really do also have to consider like mold exposure, fungal overgrowth, parasites and certain bacteria also produce histamine. And using. In my opinion, there are benefits sometimes to being able to use conventional medicines like anti. I know I'm going to say this. Antibiotics and antifungals with herbs that can actually make a vast improvement in things. So all of the fear mongering about, oh, antibiotics are going to wreck my gut. Guess what? There's a time and a place for them. They might actually drop the level of suffering to a point where you actually are like, oh my gosh, I don't need to take all four of my anti histamines today. Maybe I only need two. Well, that's a step in the right direction because right. It's a, it's a path, it's a journey.
But if it helps us get there, that's all that I'm concerned about. We can always add gut flora back in. We can always re. See, I'm not saying we should bomb things into non existence, like that's not the right approach. But the fear mongering that everyone has, being so terrified to use any conventional options and in the functional and integrative space, the bias against that is doing a mass disservice because probiotics are not going to get rid of your worm infection. They're just not. If you got pseudomonas and morganella and all this other stuff, eating leafy greens and taking probiotics is not going to fix you. It's probably not going to do a darn thing. We actually need to find the appropriate herb combinations, the appropriate possible medications and let's work together to get somebody their life back. That's my feeling.
Liz Wolfe (50:32)
Yes. Well, you know, I just had Dr. Elisa Song on the podcast and she was talking about her. I love her to pieces. She's a wonderful human being and she deserves everything good that comes to her. Professionally, I say that and personally I say that because she's been such a help to me as a mom. But were talking about this problem of antibiotic resistance. Absolutely true. But this is where these tools are warranted. It's not like, oh, another ear infection. It's like we have to be able to do something to take some of that burden down so that healing can take place. It's modern solutions, modern world, right? We have these primal bodies. You know, we have to take into account gut bacteria, all of these organisms that have been following us around for millennia. All of that is important. Important, yes.
But we are also up against, like you were saying earlier, environmental toxins, things that maybe never in history have human beings had to deal with detoxifying and exporting. And we have to be able to reduce some of that pressure so that people can reduce the stress, so that they can get their, you know, neural pathways firing properly and that. I wanted to ask you about that too. I wanted to ask you about just the sheer stress of this stuff and how dysregulating that goes on to be for people with skin conditions.
Jennifer Fugo (51:45)
Stress, and I'll add trauma to that. I mean, I think these conditions are traumatic too. I don't want to say, oh, it's just past trauma in your childhood. Like having skin conditions, depending on the severity, can be extremely traumatic. And the stress, again, we have that vagus nerve. We are constantly dealing with a variety of inputs that are coming in from our outside world as well as inside our body, because they're both equally important. It's not like your body's gonna go, oh, those outside ones don't matter as much. We're just gonna listen to the inside. We forget that, like, nutrient deficiencies are stressful. They are. Because your body, like a mom, if you don't have all the tools you need to, like, do. Deal with the house and deal with the kids, it's stressful. And the same goes for your body.
Jennifer Fugo (52:34)
So I would say that if you're just as willing to do the diet, to do the medications, the topical stuff, or take the antihistamines or whatever, if you're willing to re home your animals, to get rid of your carpets, to clean out your house, to get a water filter, to do all the things right, take all the supplements. You should be just as committed to your mind, the neural, the nervous system. Dysregulation is the harder piece to deal with because nobody wants to do the things that it takes to also address that, oftentimes because it's free. It just takes time, right? So if I say I want you to do breathing exercises for two minutes a day, that's all I'm asking. I guarantee you most people will do everything on their protocol.
That includes all the hand soaks and the supplements and the diet or whatever. And they're like, oh, yeah, I just really. That was hard.
Liz Wolfe (53:44)
Oh, amen.
Jennifer Fugo (53:46)
That is the most common. And I'm not saying listen for anybody who's like, oh boy, I really feel called out right now. I'm not calling you out. I'm trying to remind you of the fact that, that two minutes of working on your nervous system is equally as important as every pill, as every bite, as every product that you eliminate or add to your house, depending on what's going on, as anything that you do, it is equally as important. And I recognize it can be extremely difficult the more severe your skin or your body symptoms are. I, I do recognize that. So, and I'm not perfect and I understand, I'm not asking for perfection, just taking a step every day.
Because nervous system dysregulation, it's sort of like this vicious cycle that you get in, you feel bad, your mindset goes, oh my gosh, this is going to get worse. So you start to restrict in other ways and then you feel worse and then you go, well, I'm supposed to do two minutes of breathing exercises. I don't have to, I can't sit through that. I can't do it. And it just, it's a vicious cycle of catastrophizing and behaviors of how we start to judge what is safe and what is dangerous within our especially immediate environment. I really do encourage people to work on mindset, nervous system regulation, and even possibly to work with a therapist.
Jennifer Fugo (55:19)
I really do believe that if we are carrying around some of these, especially traumas from childhood, but also for those who've had really severe skin flare ups where it was traumatic and you have deep rooted fear about that coming back on. It's very helpful to have somebody who is trained in that department to talk to so that you develop the coping skills that actually help get you out of that behavior. Because the more you can put your flare. I'm just putting flaring quotes because I, you know, flare could be many different things to many different people. But the more you can contextualize your flare and go, okay, I can see my flare is starting to flare up. But while it's flaring, it's, this is not the worst flare.
And if I work on my nervous system and I do these things, I'm actually noticing it's not getting better. And you can kind of talk yourself through it. That's better than, oh my gosh, this is going to get worse. And the behavior is like perpetuating and the siren is, you know, moving up in pitch and we're getting really off kilter here.
Liz Wolfe (56:25)
Yeah.
Jennifer Fugo (56:25)
To the point where you're not sleeping and whatnot. That's not. That's not a good place to be. That's traumatic and it's stressful. So I think that aside from the fact that cytokines, again, can also contribute to depression and anxiety, that's like, that's one of the cool things that I've learned in this process is that we could blame the skin, we could blame the symptoms, but also we have to acknowledge the fact that there is this immunologic potential component that could also be driving things. And for somebody in TSW, there's a lot of mind-brain stuff happening within that as a result of that topical steroid withdrawal. So there's a lot of things happening that we have to be able to acknowledge and support people around.
But like I said, the two minutes of breathing exercise or visualization or just laying down on your floor if possible, if it doesn't bother you, and listening to like, some theta wave music that you pull up on YouTube, like, do something. Sing out loud, put your finger, favorite song on, that makes you happy, and sing out loud for two to four minutes. If you don't take those opportunities and you make them a practice, your mind starts to suffer and you will have a hard time also seeing any positive movement in the right direction. It's hard to quantify positive change because you'll be focused on what's wrong, not on what's going right. And that really does hinder people's progress and can damage relationships and other things as well.
Liz Wolfe (57:56)
Let's talk about something else that is free. I really like what you said about these are the things that you can do that are free. And maybe that's why people don't want to do them, which I also. I encourage people often to do a practice called expressive writing. It's different from journaling, but it was so unbelievably transformational for me. Literally stopped me from having near constant heart palpitations. This is a whole nother story. I've talked about it a million times on the podcast, but I cannot get people to do it. And I think it's because it feels too easy. It feels. It doesn't feel. You know, maybe if I told them to go spend hundreds of dollars on neurofeedback, they would do that. But I'm just telling you, that resonates with me so much.
Another thing that's free that I think people don't get enough of is sunlight outside stuff. And one question I had written down that I wanted to talk to you about was sunlight psoriasis, sunlight skin conditions. Can we talk about that?
Jennifer Fugo (58:54)
Yes. So I do think that for most people, I say most because there's nuance and caveat to that. Most people could benefit from sunlight exposure. There's pretty good, I think, research and even anecdotal information showing that some sunlight exposure, especially for, like, psoriasis, can be helpful. And a lot of people with psoriasis, one of the most common vitamin deficiencies is vitamin D. For that crowd, I mean, eczema goes in the same direction. The challenge is for people where you have eczema, where for some individuals, if the sunlight, if it's too hot, will make them sweat and they become itchy, some people with rosacea sunlight will cause the rosacea to get worse. And so sunlight is not necessarily, at least on the face, their friend.
But if they physically start to get hot, because, again, it's too hot outside, that can cause a rosacea flare up. Same with hives and dermatographia. Some people have almost like a sun allergy. So unfortunately, sunlight can trigger that. So, again, caveats, right?
Liz Wolfe (59:57)
Yes, always.
Jennifer Fugo (59:59)
But I do think, in general, if you can be outside, I think it is helpful, obviously, if you have pollen allergies, if it's difficult at certain times of the year, and you can look that information up of like, hey, I have a ragweed allergy. I live in this zip code. When is it high? And, you know, like, that's probably not the time to be, like, hanging outside for hours on end. But in general, I really do wish that people would find ways to get outdoors. Even if. If sunlight is not necessarily your friend in this moment, or it's summertime and it's just too hot, maybe even just sitting outside in the shade, just getting that fresh air, you know, we don't see it, but there are chemicals in our home, things off gas. That's why every place smells better when we air it out.
Jennifer Fugo (01:00:52)
Even our own homes, our HVac systems can be loaded with dust, sometimes mold, and other things growing in them. So it's good to get those cleaned out. But in general, I think sunlight can have some really positive impacts. But I would also say be mindful of what type. I'm not going to go into this because I'm not an expert on it, but be mindful of what type of sunscreens you use, because obviously some have chemicals in them that may also be exacerbating to the skin, irritating to the skin. I Personally tend to try to go for like the more zinc mineral based products. But again for some individuals they burns like it physically burns their skin because of something in it. So you just have to keep trying things. But yeah, that's my 2 cents.
Jennifer Fugo (01:01:41)
And also like the other cool thing is like salt water, like the bountyotherapy or hydrotherapy. There is actually really great research and it doesn't again does not work for everybody but there are people who notice if they go to the beach and they go in like more salt water type areas and obviously it's clean water. We don't want to have like a red tide or. Right. We want to go to a clean body of water. But some people will also notice now whether it's the combo the sun and the water, I don't know. But there is great research out of like France and different areas where they have even just natural springs.
Jennifer Fugo (01:02:17)
And that doesn't mean that somebody necessarily is being exposed to sunlight where that too can also beneficial because it has so many minerals in the water that we do get some access to those minerals in our skin and even potentially in our body as well.
Liz Wolfe (01:02:33)
An acquaintance of mine had a little girl with severe eczema all over her body and they moved to Hawaii and spent a ton of time in the ocean. And it absolutely after everything they had tried it was being in that ocean water that happened to work for, I mean obviously multifactorial. But for her little girl that's what worked. And it was miraculous almost.
Jennifer Fugo (01:02:57)
It is really neat to see again what works for some people doesn't work for other people. But I think it's a beautiful. I like this is where the conversation gets tricky because then you have people that are like what about mold?
Liz Wolfe (01:03:10)
Right.
Jennifer Fugo (01:03:11)
Again we have to be careful how we talk about like the choice to move is difficult. It's not easy. The choice to like big life changes like rehoming animals because you're allergic to them or you suspect you're allergic, renovating your house, remediating mold, having to move to a completely different environment because like maybe a cold environment does not work with your skin and being in a more humid environment is better with more access to sun and water, etc. So I think we just want to give some grace and space for conversations like that and really be cautious of avoiding the fear mongering that sometimes social media tends that like it's very black and white, you either do it or you don't and you just suffer because there's huge financial ramifications and there's emotional ramifications.
Jennifer Fugo (01:04:01)
And it's also, we have to be careful of making people afraid in their own home. I don't want someone to be afraid of their home. Like thinking like there's mold lurking behind every wall and it's going like it's poisoning me. That's a horrible feeling to have. That then feeds into nervous system dysregulation. That doesn't help. So again, it's about finding what works for you, taking a mindful approach. And I'll also say this, I think this is another good free point. Social media is wonderful, but social media is also horrible. And if you're the type of person that is watching all of these accounts that are making you afraid of every ingredient of everything in your house, everything is coming to get you, do yourself a favor and unfollow them. If I am triggering to you, unfollow me. It's okay.
Jennifer Fugo (01:04:50)
You have to guard your space, your mental space. Especially when you're going through like a lot of these health challenges, depending on severity can be really draining. You might not have the bandwidth to be able to take in all of this information that's pushing your fear into overdrive and then deal with all of the stuff that's like the just day to day life stuff and what's happening with your body and that's free. It's okay to disconnect, it's okay to hit the pause button on something. It's also okay if you have to kind of like tap out of being so intimately involved in close friendships. Just let people know, say, hey, I just need to take a little bit of a break. I'm really struggling. I value you. I love you. I just, I need some time.
For me, I think that's better than just disappearing on somebody. So those things are all free that we can do that don't necessarily involve any money, but they help support our mental health, our well being, and how we can show up for others in our lives who really truly mean something to us.
Liz Wolfe (01:05:53)
Yeah, I wanted to speak to something that this conversation has made me turn over in my head a little bit. I feel like there's two ways that this can go. This can give people a lot of hope. Like there is somebody out there that understands what is going on. And this mystery issue that I've been dealing with and haven't been able to figure out, but it can also feel really intimidating. So I feel like we can invite people just to sit with it. You don't have to do Anything with this information right now. But if you need a framework through which to process it, I hope you can allow it to give you a little bit of. A little bit of additional hope.
Not feeling like you're gonna have to wade through more complexities, but that there are answers out there that have nothing to do with eating nothing, eating only two or three things, or just having to suffer, or slathering whatever it is all over you every five minutes of every day. There is more information out there for people. You don't have to know it all right now. You don't have to have it all figured out right now, but it's there for you to explore when. When it feels less overwhelming.
Jennifer Fugo (01:06:57)
Yeah, I love the way that you put that. No one's late. Nobody is late to the conversation. You come into the conversation at the right time. And when we start making rash judgments and decisions about things based a lot of times on fear, those are usually not all the time, but those are usually the things that we regret because they weren't measured, they weren't maybe appropriate for where you would be in six months. Sometimes when we're in the moment, we panic and we just want to make everything stop and we don't know what to do. It's okay to take a beat, to take a breath and say, you know, I'm going to start dipping my toes in. I don't necessarily, like need to do all the things right now. I'm just going to get started. I have the podcast.
Jennifer Fugo (01:07:43)
So if people are listening to this and they're like, I really want to learn more about skin stuff. We have the podcast. It's 350+ episodes. So it's a lot. And the one thing I did want to share is that we have this guide that actually points you to the first eight episodes you should listen to and they're not long that you should listen to that actually help ground you in a lot of this, like, kind of root cause type thing. Because it's like, listen, I'm gonna be honest, I don't think I'd listen to all 350 episodes. I'd be like, I don't even know where to start. So I'm like, just give me what. Where do I start? And that's a really great place to start.
Jennifer Fugo (01:08:20)
And it can be a nice place to start figuring out what the process actually looks like to understand what's going on with your skin from a different perspective without becoming afraid of everything and start realizing and learning the right questions that you should ask that actually could crack open what's happening to you and to learn how to better advocate for yourself, because there's a lot of missed opportunities if you don't know what you don't know. Like, you can't make the best choice. I'm a firm believer in full disclosure. Tell us everything, pros and cons, and let me make the decision that's best for me without judgment. So, anyway, that.
That's one really great guide that if anybody wants to check out, it's called Stop My Skin Rashes guide, which I think maybe we can link up in the show notes for people if they really are like, I don't know what to do about this because it. It is a great place to start. That's grounded and mindful.
Liz Wolfe (01:09:18)
That's perfect. Jen Fugo, you're awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the show!
